Andrew Denton Articles 28/2/05

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Roping in the quizmaster (i'm posting this in 2 parts)

February 26, 2005





Photo: Quentin Jones




The doyen of talk television tells Alexa Moses why on-screen success doesn't always bring happiness, what his partner has taught him and how being labelled temperamental doesn't tell the whole story.



When the diminutive Andrew Denton started at a new high school, he encountered a thuggish student who entertained himself by stabbing the weaker kids through the back of their hands with a pair of compass points.

"He just looked at me, like, 'Your turn'," Denton says. "I looked up at him and said, 'F---. Off.' He f---ed off. Physically, he could have beaten the crap out of me, but there was - sometimes people can pick up that you mean it. I meant it. I was fierce."

Almost 30 years later, the Australian television interviewer and producer is still fierce, albeit in the way your favourite English teacher was fierce. Uncompromisingly intelligent, candid and playful. But if he thought you were being slack or vain or stupid, he would, without hesitation, drag you to the front of his classroom and tear you to shreds. The difference is, Denton's probably the master of Australian television.

Late last year, Denton, who has said he hates television, was named the best-liked and most recognisable person on the Australian small screen by the "Q-score" index poll. His ABC interview series Enough Rope attracted both a weighty Walkley (journalism) award in 2003 for broadcast interviewing, as well as the Australian Film Institute (clever divertissement) award for best light entertainment series in 2003 and '04.
This curious beast of a show, in which Denton interviews ordinary people as well as celebrities, is one of the ABC's top-rating programs, beginning its third year on Monday night. Still, Denton doesn't believe he's travelled all that far from his television origin, the 1988 anti-chat show Blah Blah Blah.

"I've just taken out the comedy side of it," Denton says. "I reached a point where I wanted to do interviewing in its pure form. I wanted to strip away the bells and whistles, I didn't want any props, I just wanted to have a good conversation."

Let's do that, then. Andrew Christopher Denton grew up in the Blue Mountains. His father, Kit Denton, wrote the novel The Breaker, which became fodder for the 1980 film Breaker Morant. Denton jnr studied communications at university in Bathurst and, afterwards, performed in Theatresports and wrote for radio comedian Doug Mulray.

Denton's television break came when he auditioned for ABC TV's Blah Blah Blah. A succession of talk shows and one-offs followed, including The Money or the Gun, The Party Machine and Live and Sweaty. By 1993, Denton was one of the biggest names in Australian comedy. In 1994, he went commercial with the late-night talk show Denton on the Seven Network. Then, in 1996, Denton blipped off our television screens. "I was in deep-sleep therapy," he says. "That's right; you don't exist if you're not on television."

Denton "went away" for a year. The way he phrases it suggests overseas travel, but what Denton did was stay home. It's as if Andrew Denton has an alter-ego, DENTON, who dwells in the public cosmos, and that cosmos was the place the lower-case Denton "went away" from. "I went away and I stopped being capital me," Denton says. "I didn't like the nervous tension of being a public person."

It was, he says, a stressful time. "When I was at Channel Seven, even though I'm immensely proud of that show, that was a very bad time for me personally. I was really unhappy. I was unhappy with where I was and who I was. And I treated people badly. Not all the people and not all the time, but I was extremely volatile - there's that word. And when I went away for that year afterwards, I thought 'I don't ever want to be like that again.' "

In 1997, Denton began working as a radio announcer at Triple M, and a few weeks later weathered the death of his father. Then, in a fog of anger - "I was just ready to explode" - he separated from his partner, journalist Jennifer Byrne, for six months, after which they reunited.

Denton worked at Triple M until 2001 and, spotting talent, propelled the Chaser comedy team from print to screen in their first television gig, The Election Chaser. Next, he became executive producer of the 2002 and 2003 series of the Chaser's CNNNN. In 2002, he "went away" for another year. He hung out with his son, Connor. He thought a lot. He worked on CNNNN. He "observed the world from behind the curtains" once more.

Andrew Denton 2005 seems, at least on the surface, a more affable figure than the "dark, paranoid, mad, angry person" an ABC colleague last year told him he appeared to be back in the Blah Blah Blah days. He's middle-aged; his son is now 10. His hair is greying around the edges. His work has deepened, and perhaps lost a frenetic edge it used to have.

"It's not that I don't get angry or querulous, it's just that, what's the right way to put it?" he says. "The world is infinitely more complex than it appeared to me 15 years ago."

Denton has also excised most of the comedy from his work, in order to focus on the serious stuff. "You can [be a middle-aged comic] if you work very hard at it, because comedy is really hard," he says. "But my muscles are very, very flabby when it comes to comedy. I would not risk myself, because I'm just not match-fit. I have lost touch with it. I've become a much more serious young insect."

Director and producer Mark FitzGerald, who has worked extensively with Denton, says the biggest word in Denton's life is "integrity". "Andrew has still got a terrific sense of humour ... but he's not the kind of person who holds back when he thinks it could be better," FitzGerald says. "He's a very complicated guy in some ways."

It was during 2002 - and there was no neat anecdote with which to frame it - that Denton made a decision. He put it to himself that his life was good. "I have everything I've ever asked for," he says. "I'm happily married, beautiful child, material comfort, I live in an extraordinary place, I have the regard of my peers, blah blah blah - what am I walking around being miserable for? If things are going to turn out as badly as I think, they'll be plenty of time to be miserable in the future."

It sounds rational. It sounds almost cognitive-behavioural. Did Denton visit a counsellor? "I spoke to some really smart people, friends, whose opinion and advice and take on life I respected." That's as specific as Denton will get. He credits Byrne, particularly, for teaching him to nurture optimism, even in the face of prevailing evidence. "It's the thing that Jennifer's really taught me ... is that optimism is not just a state you fall into. It's a force of will."

Despite his will, Denton remains a wary optimist. "If you don't look at the world as it currently is and don't feel, at the minimum, a sense of alarm, you're not looking at the world," he says. He believes, for example, that it's inevitable a nuclear weapon will be exploded in an American city in the future. "I think that's what's going to happen, but - and I suppose this is an example of what I say about complexity - when you look at the bends history takes, it can be really surprising," he says.

Can Denton be temperamental and volatile to work with, as rumoured? This is a "lazy thumbprint" he wants to put straight. "I really object to this really simple brushstroke of volatile, difficult person to work with," he says. "I expect very high standards of work from myself and everyone else. But that's how you get good work. That's a very different thing to being volatile, temperamental and explosive ... Yeah, I can be difficult, but that's not the end of the story. There's also a reward."

Obviously, someone's been slack or vain or stupid, because Denton suddenly looks very fierce, his eyes glittering through his glasses. Yes, sir!

Those who have worked with Denton agree with him. Producer Andy Nehl, who created Blah Blah Blah and worked on The Denton Show, says Denton is a perfectionist, but in the best way. The Chaser's Julian Morrow calls Denton "a tough master ... and we wouldn't want him to be any other way".

On final analysis, Denton appears to be toughest on Andrew Denton. His colleagues agree he sets himself the highest standards and is extremely critical of his own work. Denton says he's "horribly self-lacerating" and agonises about his own interviews afterwards. What Denton appears to fear is his work suffering middle-aged spread, sliding towards that television snuggery where thinking is considered elite and mediocrity becomes the norm.

"Being smart and demanding doesn't mean being an arsehole," he says. "Being an arsehole means not being able to control your emotions."

Denton on ...

The art of the interview

"My idea [was] to strip [the interview] back to the purest form and speak to a very wide range of people in depth and try and do something which didn't fit into the normal agendas of television, and by that I mean the ideological agendas. So, being on the ABC, I didn't want there to be the usual list of suspects that you might get on the ABC. I wanted it to be people from the far right, people from the far left, people from just far away."

The hardest question he ever asked

"Even though it's really not that serious an issue, to talk to Russell Crowe about the "go Russ go" rumour [gossip that circulated about the actor, alleging that Crowe called out his own name during sex]. I was quite prepared to ask that question, although most of the people I know that I've worked with have never asked him that. You're aware that he's a man who can be very volatile..."

Interviewing as a gladiator sport

"I don't see it that way, and therein lies the nature of the show. I actually don't see that being adversarial is useful. It's about challenging. At some point you challenge people. Sometimes it can be a really basic question like 'Who do you trust?' That's a much more challenging question than 'Don't you think you've got an ego?'"

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Denton's interviewees ask him...February 26, 2005

Some of Andrew Denton's interviewees put their own questions to Denton, through journalist Alexa Moses. Note that Denton didn't know which of his former interviewees had contributed questions.



The transcript of questions and answers follows:

ITA BUTTROSE, author and journalist

1. How do you feel about being the thinking woman's sex symbol?

Denton: I used to describe myself as the thinking woman's celibate symbol. The truth, in my experience, is that the thinking woman when they think about it, decides no. I know almost nobody in comedy who gets laid. People like Rove and Wil Anderson have really let the team down, they're really good looking, by the standards of most comedians. I really think they're a great disappointment. No. Correction. I wake up every morning thinking I'm hot in the frontal lobe area. Does my intellect look fat in this?

2. Do you discuss your interviews with your wife, journalist Jennifer Byrne?

Denton: Sometimes, particularly if she knows the person or if I'm unsure. She may have already interviewed the person or she may know them.
3. Would you like to have Michael Parkinson's spot on the BBC?

Denton: No! You know it's funny, people say, 'Oooh, you're the new Parkinson'. A) There currently is a Parkinson and no need for another one, and B) I'm not trying to be anyone other than me. In fact, I spent my entire career aggressively doing television which isn't beholden to anybody overseas, American or British formats, because I believe it's possible to be original. See, why is there such a narrowness of imagination amongst people who write about television in this country, that you have to be somebody else? I know, it's often meant as a compliment, if I'm going to be compared to someone I might as well be compared to someone who's considered the best in the field. [Parkinson] is generally considered the best in the field, but I don't want to be him and when he came on the show, he knows that. Michael Parkinson has the wit to realise that our shows are extremely different and have a very different agenda. It just frustrates me sometimes. Why can people on Australian television only be categorised whether or not like they're someone overseas? Why can't we just be satisfied with who we are and what we do? It's like that Logies cringe, the only way we can feel happy about ourselves is if some starlet from America says, 'I like you'. It's bullshit. We're perfectly good at doing what we do. Does John Safran have to be the Australian Chris Morris? No, he's John Safran. It's cultural cringe. When are we going to move on from this stuff?

4. If you got an interview with the Pope, which one question would you ask him?

Denton: Probably what I'd want to know is, how do you feel about the preventable deaths of millions of people in South America because of your policies?

5. Ditto the Queen?

Denton: The Queen would be harder because the Queen, I haven't thought about her that much. Royalty. Let me think. I think I'd probably want to drive at, if I was talking to her right now, I would want to say, when Prince Harry dressed up in the Nazi uniform, OK, it's excusable he makes a mistake, but his only job is to understand and represent the history of your country. And if he doesn't understand what Nazi Germany meant to England, who the hell is teaching him, and why are you guys still in this business? 'Cause he of all people should get it. This is all his job is, is to represent British history.

6. Ditto Charles and Camilla?

Denton: Is the sex worth it? If you were just asking completely frankly, when Charles said he wanted to be a tampon inside you, did you actually think that was romantic? Was else does he do for small talk?

MURRAY COOK, the red Wiggle

1. How did becoming a parent change your professional life? Has being a father affected the way you interview other parents?

Denton: Absolutely. Being a parent changes your view of life in general. It's something only a parent would say, but it happens to be true. If I had done this show ten years ago, twelve years ago, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective because I wouldn't have understood how fundamentally parenting affects your view of yourself, and of the world, and challenges you. The core of a lot of the interviews you do is actually about the challenges of parents, the very heart of human relationships. [Parenting] is the most important job you can do. If you believe in the future, that's what you're trying to do, you're tutoring the future, you're trying to shepherd them into some moral view of the world.

ADAM ELLIOT, Oscar-winning animator

1. Andrew, you seem to refer to your own height quite frequently. As an animator working with miniatures I find my characters suffer various complexes from being vertically challenged. Do you have any of these disorders or are you comfortable with your height problem?

Denton: Being small has always been a great source of humour and in fact at this wake recently, I decided when I'm dead, I want to be carried out in a coffin that's six-foot-five, because whenever you go to a funeral and everyone says, 'gee, the coffin's so much smaller than I thought it would be!' I want to have a stretch coffin. I'm five-foot-five, but I never think of myself as short. It's only when I see photos of myself that I think, I'm a shortarse. Even in cinemas, even someone with the slightest bouffant hairdo sits in front of me and I can't see the film.

2. Andrew, your wit and overall cleverness is quite overt and apparent. Have you ever suffered shyness, and/or were ever bashed up in the sandpit at kinda?

Denton: No, I was never bashed up in the sandpit. I'm actually quite a shy person. When I go to parties, I'm no good at the small talk. I don't actually like going out to the parties. Reserved might be a better word. I know how not to be shy. I'm very, very happy sitting quietly up the back. I was never bashed in the sandpit. I was extremely fierce. The other kids learnt very quickly although I was very short, not to have a go. I wouldn't back down.

JOHN SAFRAN, SBS television compere

1. How did you pick up Jennifer Byrne?

Denton: This story has been done many times, do you really want it again?

[Yep. Give me the overview.]

Denton: It was a rally about Kerry Packer taking over Fairfax. And I went along as an observer. And Jennifer was there as a speaker, she worked for Channel Nine at the time and it didn't go down too well. Afterwards, she came over to me because I was doing, I was there dressed in fashionable t-shirt and shorts, looking about as daggy as you can get and you've already seen my hair [in the old photos], and she said she liked the show. I said, 'oh well, is there anything I can do to help in this cause?' She said, 'we're going back to the pub to have a drink'. I joined a whole bunch of people we got talking. I think I recall making some offensive remark about 60 Minutes which I hardly watched at the time, it offended her, and to her credit, she jumped straight back at me. We got to talking and this classic thing, there was some chemistry there. In the middle somewhere, we stopped talking, and it wasn't that embarrassed looking-away talking, we just stopped and looked at each other. Well, you asked!

2. Have you ever split up with her?

Denton: We split up for about six months in the late 1990s, and it was a really good thing to do.

[Why?]

Denton: Because, it was my first year of Triple M, my father died just a few weeks after I started, and by about halfway through the year, I was just ready to explode, I just needed to go away. I was angry, but I didn't realise what I was angry about. So basically, clearly it's not happy when you separate but it was great for us. When we got back together six months later, we, our relationship has been stronger than ever and our family is stronger than ever. I think the general view of separation is, 'what a tragedy', or 'what a disaster', or 'what a scandal', whereas I look at it as a really healthy thing for us to do. I went and lived in a little apartment directly opposite - although I didn't know at the time - Fairfax in Sussex Street. It was very funny. So when the paparazzi worked it out and started stalking me, they only had to walk out the door.

3. Who was your first love?

When I was at Roseville Primary school, it was a girl called Helen Pavey. Something in the way she moved, she sashayed in that fifth-class way, she seemed worldly-wise, well beyond me. She had short dark hair, I don't know what it was, but she did it for me. The other boys in my class teased out of me who it was I fancied, and I said Helen Pavey, and they all ran off to tell her. She was not interested in me. No one was interested in me for a long, long time.

[So who was your first serious love, beyond year six?]

Jennifer, actually. I was quite old then, 29, I was about 30. Nothing before that you would call serious.

[That's unusual. Not bad, but unusual.]

I was keeping myself nice.

4. Are you bitter about any of your exes?

I'm not bitter about anything. I don't actually, I'm at a fortunate point where I don't feel any bitterness.

DR KARL KRUSZELNICKI, scientist and radio personality

1. Does Denton know his own mobile phone number?

[Denton picks up his phone and shows me. His number is neatly taped onto the back of his phone. That would be no, then.]

2. How technologically challenged are you in this world?

Denton: Fairly. I've never, to my shame, downloaded a single piece of music.

3. Can you program a VCR to record something when you're not in the house?

Denton: No. Can anyone?

[Yes, I can.]

Denton: No you can't, you're lying. You think you have, but you haven't.

[I taped Desperate Housewives on Monday night]

Denton: What did you get when you watched it back?

[Desperate Housewives]

Denton: Sheer coincidence

4. Can you change the time on your VCR?

Denton: Why would I change the time on my VCR? No! Life is too short. I'd look at my watch.

[But if the time on the VCR is wrong, you can't program it to record when you go out.]

Denton: What I do is, I ask people to tell me what the show was like.

5. Can you change the time on your mobile phone when it rolls in and out of daylight savings?

Denton: No and I couldn't be bothered!

6. Can you change the tire on your car?

Denton: I have, but I wouldn't be confident changing the tire on my own car.

7. What you would do if you had a flat tyre, and there was no charge on the mobile so you couldn't call the NRMA?

Denton: I would throw myself on the mercy of passing traffic.

[And say, I'm Andrew Denton... I can't change my own tyre?]

Denton: Actually, you know what? I hate doing that. I really, really hate pulling rank like that. I would have been really desperate if I've ever done it.

8. Do you have a stash of coins to put in a parking meter, or for a payphone?

Denton: I have a few coins but usually not enough and there is usually no point in carrying coins for payphones, as I'm yet to find a payphone in this city which works. I have the ashtray, I throw coins, in it because I don't smoke ... Who's asking these questions?

PROFESSOR PETER SINGER, philosopher

1. Do you agree that animals like chickens and pigs can suffer?

Denton: How is Peter Singer? Um, the last time I corresponded with Peter Singer, he sent me an email, I sent one back and said, your email just arrived, I'm just eating a beautiful veal sandwich. I didn't hear from him again. We talked about it on and offscreen. I really respect his views, but my view is, we've worked very hard to reach the top of the food chain. Vegetarian just doesn't do it for me. I'm unashamedly a brains and veins man. Yes, I'd like to think they suffered for my nice dinner.

2. If so, do you agree that chickens, pigs and other intensively farmed animals endure considerable suffering in the process of getting them to produce meat and eggs?

Denton: Yes, and I think they should be killed far more humanely, but I think they should be killed nonetheless.

3. If so, do you think that your pleasure in eating these products justifies you in purchasing them, and thereby supporting the intensive production methods that cause them to suffer?

Denton: No, but I think my pleasure at eating these products is undeniable and should be satisfied somehow.

4. So why do you continue to eat them?

Denton: 'Cause they're yummy. Also, let's be realistic here. We've spent many tens of thousands of years eating meat. It's not a coincidence. Our bodies crave it. I crave it. It keeps me going.